The Iraqui prison abuse situation

[Emperor Napoleon]

What do you think? Personally I think it is the media using any and every means possible to discredit the Bush Administration and create opposition to the war. Before condemning the soldiers involved, I would like to hear their side of the story. What transpired before these alleged acts of "torture" I would like to know. What motive did someone have for taking the photos and making them public? Atrocities do occur during war, war in and of itself is humanity's biggest atrocity if you think about it. But the same people screaming for blood over this "torture" will look the other way on terrorist acts, look the other way about 9/11 and seek every means they can to demonize US actions. While I can understand foreigners doing it, it makes me sick to think of Americns sympathizing with those Islamic filth bags. I'm sure US soldiers also did things in WWI, WWII, Korea and VietNam and any other conflict we have ever been in that would be considered "scandalous". So what? War is Hell. We're there to win, who cares how?

[LanDroid]

You underestimate the effect this will have.

But make no mistake. Bin Laden has just won the victory for which he always plotted and schemed. U.S. and world terror experts have always told us that the ultimate goal behind his acts of terror was to goad America into committing the sort of catastrophic blunder that would resonate not just through the Middle East but the entire world. He wanted a horrific over-response, captured on film so that the world would no longer believe that Americans are global good guys -- but closet evildoers. Just as bin Laden has been saying in his periodic videotaped rants. Now the pictures pouring through the Great News Funnels into living rooms around the planet seem to be proof of just that.

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artma...cle_4500.shtml

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now that the Arab world has proof that Americans have been using torture and intimidating interrogation methods in the same facilities Saddam used for these activities, we will never be able to earn one milligram of leadership credibility.

[Raven Soul]

I concur with LanDroid. We now have a "black eye". Not that we didn't already have a nice shiner already in the Arab world, but the damage is done, there is no fix for this. We lost a lot of ground with this "Scandal". I would love to see how these tapes came to light though, there in is the big question.

[Lew]

I don't know as if it will make that much difference. When you think about it, there really isn't much room in the world anymore for rational thought. Most subsrcibe to one, rigid side (or ideology) and whatever your side does is fine, whatever the other side does is wrong. My point being, those in the Arab world who are against us....I mean, this tape may bolster them somewhat, but honestly, if we took Iraqi POWs and gave them cable TV and a weight room, would our detractors think any higher of us? And the other side is also true- we can torture or do whatever we want, Israel will remain our ally.

As far as our "legitimacy" in the world stage, that's not going to change, either. Those who hate us already will keep doing so, and would no matter what, and the opposite is true for those who love us. There are more haters than lovers, but that's because we ourselves are playa-hatahs.....

[Emperor Napoleon]

As usual good points Lew. As everyone knows I try to stear a middle course based on fairness and try to avoid any kind of extremism. [img]graemlins/angel.gif[/img]

[Emperor Napoleon]

Here's an interesting article my cousin sent to me. It makes some very valid points that I agree with:

If we treated WW2 like we do the war on terrorism
Right Wing News
5/06/04
by John Hawkins & Perry Bullock


August 1st, 1944

After one of the bloodiest months of fighting in Europe, House Republican leaders called for all United States forces to be withdrawn from Europe. "This is a quagmire," said one house member. "There is no evidence whatsoever that Nazi Germany had any connection to the attacks of 12/07 and fighting with Germany is a distraction from our war on Japan. We need to finish the job in the Pacific before getting involved in Europe?s problem and besides, it?s not as if Nazi Germany is an imminent threat to America. They haven?t even been able to conquer Britain. Besides, isn?t this a matter for the League of Nations?"

Asked about reports that there were some concentration camps in Europe, another House member replied, "He [FDR] has never said that this was about liberating the concentration camps in his 12/08 speech. In fact, how could he [FDR] say a word about this when we ally ourselves with dictators such as Josef Stalin and Chang-Kai-Shek?"

One Republican Senator opined that, "FDR has squandered all the good will we built up from WW1 in a few short years and for what? So we can conquer Japan and Germany to acquire cheap radios and German automobiles. It?s about enriching FDR?s Wall-Street buddies".

On the other hand, some Republican leaders say that this was an attempt by President Roosevelt to distract Americans from the depression. "He [FDR] has had no success with his domestic agenda, his New Deal isn?t working, and he is trying to deflect attention away from his failure to stack the Supreme Court. So rather than deal with the issues people are really care about right now like the environment and subsidies for the dying buggy whip industry, Roosevelt took what should have been a law enforcement matter to be settled between the State Department and Japan and turned it into another War of 1812!"

Among some of the criticism of FDR?s European policy is the way the Administration is allying itself with resistance leaders. "I don?t trust either one of them [Charles De Gaulle and Tito]."They have been feeding the so-called allies phony information. If we had a Republican President, we?d have better allies who could shoulder more of the burden instead of this fraudulent coalition that FDR has put together."

There were reports that Nazi Germany had chemical weapons, but house members scoff at those. "If Nazi Germany had poison gas, do you think they would have already used it? Roosevelt lied and people died!"

Others criticized the President for the way the operation to Europe came about. Former WW1 military commanders criticized the Invasion of Normandy as "Reckless". "It?s obvious that we barely had enough troops to prepare ourselves for the German counter offensive" one critic said. "Our jeeps were inadequately design to handle the new German?s panzerfaust anti-tank weapon and we are stretching our troops too thin in both Germany and Japan. I don?t even know what we?re trying to do and I doubt Roosevelt does either. If only we had a plan, we wouldn?t be taking so many casualties."

A GOP congressman summed it all up by saying "It was arrogant and reckless for Roosevelt to use Pearl Harbor as an excuse to drag us into a world war and I only hope we can get him out of office so we won?t have to waste anymore of our young men?s lives on this mess he got us into."

[jumper69]

much ado about nothing I think. I saw the pictures and I'm with lake. Boo frickin hoo, they had to be naked. Oh my gawd, we're all going to hell. I didn't see any burn marks, broken limbs, or other torture evidence.

Fuck the Iraqi's and everyone that looks like an Iraqi...

[LanDroid]

I take it you screwballs wouldn't object to American POW's receiving the same treatment. It's obvious that some of this treatment was calculated to be of utmost offensiveness to Muslims - women treating men like dogs, drunks abusing prisoners, homosexuals having their way, etc. Now imagine Muslims treating American POW's in a way exquisitely designed to enrage Christians. I don't know what those actions might be, but I suspect we're about to find out. [img]eek.gif[/img]

Rush Limbaugh tried to dismiss all this as soldiers just blowing off steam like at a Skull & Bones frat party. Well don't forget the abuse included sodomizing with broomsticks and chemical lights. Perhaps Rush should offer to help improve the morale of soldiers in Iraq by offering to submit to the same treatment. [img]graemlins/gulp.gif[/img]

We are in danger of losing something much more important than just the war in Iraq. We are in danger of losing America as an instrument of moral authority and inspiration in the world.

Thomas Friedman

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<font color="#000002" size="1">[ May 06, 2004 10:02 PM: Message edited by: LanDroid ]</font>

[LAKE]

You can follow this page to a link to see the pics for yourself. Frankly, I'm not bothered by them at all, which kind of bothers me. [img]confused.gif[/img]

[Emperor Napoleon]

Some very ugly prisoners I must say... [img]eek.gif[/img]